The 'Inspire your Life' Podcast with Arthi Rabikrisson
The 'Inspire your Life' Podcast with Arthi Rabikrisson
S4 E1 Enhancing our ability to work with expertise - with Dr Elizabeth Crosse
Welcome to SEASON 4!! It's great to be back and yes, we have returned this season in style with a fabulous guest to kick off!
In this first episode, Arthi is joined by Dr. Elizabeth Crosse to discuss enhancing our ability to work with expertise.
Elizabeth shares her passion about lifelong learning & explains how she navigated through several learning and personal challenges, and that some of her greatest learnings came from her own personal storm as she likes to refer to it. Dr Crosse details that she found this personal storm to be a major wake up call and decided to look inwards at how she was being more than what she was doing. It was this realisation that got her thinking that working with professionals is not only about what we know but rather who we are
Elizabeth explains the differences between professional (Horizontal growth) and personal growth (Vertical growth) and shares how her wish is to be a provocateur to have listeners consider different perspectives of growth. Elizabeth refers to horizontal growth as ”adding apps to our phone” where as vertical growth is more like “upgrading our system.”
Elizabeth shares the ability to work with expertise is all about how we're managing relationships while being able to bring our humanity. Thereafter the skills and knowledge is what enables us to have the type of connections and relationships to work with expertise.
Some wise words from Elizabeth Crosse:
“if I've learned something, I can then do something differently”
”we don't have to agree with each other to be able to move forward”
Listen to the full episode for so much more insights and ideas offered by this wonderful guest.
About Elizabeth:
Elizabeth is a Master Certified Coach (MCC) who works as a coach, mentor & supervisor. Her practice focuses on continuous professional & personal development needed to enhance the quality of our work. Her approach has evolved from over 30 years of involvement with the coaching profession & being a research practitioner deeply interested in how coaches develop expertise.
Elizabeth has navigated dyslexia & dyspraxia to transition from an early career in education to becoming a senior HR professional specialising in people development before setting up her coaching-consultancy business. She became a fellow of the CIPD, a Master Credentialed Coach with the ICF (MCC) & completed a Diploma in Coaching Supervision. She achieved three Master’s degrees (Education, Counselling Psychology and Coaching & Mentoring) & a Doctorate in Coaching and Mentoring. Her journey brought an appreciation of the integrity, intellectual rigour & compassion needed to underpin any learning relationship to grow as a person and develop as a professional. Her research on continuous professional development brought a recognition of the need for a holistic approach. This is reflected in her own approach to development, which, in addition to engaging with supervision, research writing & acquiring new knowledge, also focuses on well-being.
Connect with Elizabeth here:
Do rate, write a review and share with others.
Share too, your own insights from your journey based on themes from the episode - what has worked or hasn't for you. We can all learn from each other.
Hello everyone, and welcome to the inspire your life podcast with me, your host, Arthi Rabikrisson, I believe we find inspiration all around us, especially from the stories that we all have in us. My aim with the inspire your life podcast is to bring some of those real stories to light, stories of my guests that resonate with you and me. It's by listening to these stories that we can be inspired and motivate ourselves to overcome, find a new path and rise even higher than we thought possible. Joining me on the show today is Dr Elizabeth Crosse. She is a master certified coach who works as a coach, a mentor, my mentor, too and supervisor. Her practice focuses on continuous professional and personal development to everybody which is needed to enhance the quality of our work. Her approach has evolved from over 30 years of involvement within the coaching profession and also being a research practitioner who's been very deeply interested in how coaches develop their expertise. So everyone, I mean, you can tell that Elizabeth is really passionate about lifelong learning, and, of course, a little bit on the personal side, she has navigated on her own things like dyslexia and dyspraxia to transition from an early career in education to becoming a senior HR professional specialising in people development, before actually then setting up her coaching and consultancy business, which now focuses on strategic leadership. Her journey, as you can tell, has brought a really deep appreciation of the integrity, intellectual rigour and also that compassion that's needed to underpin any learning relationship, so that we can all grow as people and also develop professionally. For today's podcast everyone, it is such a privilege for me to be having this conversation with Elizabeth where we're going to be talking about enhancing our ability to work with expertise. So a really, really warm welcome to you, Elizabeth, to the inspire your life podcast.
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:Thank you for such a beautiful introduction for that, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.
Arthi Rabikrisson:Oh absolute pleasure and thank you so much for making the time. I've given everyone such a high level biography about you Elizabeth, but please tell us a little bit more about Elizabeth, the person share a bit more about
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:Well, thank you so much and just as you were
Arthi Rabikrisson:Yes, giving such a comprehensive background, I thought, so Oh, what else might be of interest or relevance to your listeners. And I was thinking maybe it's a little bit of a link to where we're going to go today, as I talk about the importance of thinking about personal growth as well as our professional development. And I'll talk a little bit about what's the difference in a minute. In enabling our ability to work with expertise because I think, as you mentioned, I've navigated dyslexia and dyspraxia, and I think as all of us will relate, life is a journey full of challenges. And I think for me,
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:and I think when I look at my own journey, what I realised is my greatest learning sort of came from some of the really difficult things that I wouldn't have chosen to cope with that I think all of us will relate to. You know, how we sort of navigate our relationships, how we sort of navigate tragedies in our families, all of these types of issues? it was when I had, I think I call it about the personal storm. And it was probably fairly late in my life, I was sort of in my my mid 40s that when my father died, I was going through a divorce, I was facing redundancy. I was was probably a bit late in my mid 40s. I was actually caught up in a terrorist attack in the London Underground. And all of these sort of things have hit within about a nine month period. And I really thought I was functioning well and and the way I always deal with things is to work. So I was going on working, and then I literally ended up in complete and utter meltdown. And I think it was at that point that it was a real call to think about much, much more on how I was being, how did I need to be in the world, rather than, what did I need to know and do and and that, I think, is when I really started to get interested into this whole area of we think about ourselves coming back to working as professionals. It's not just about what we know, it's about who we are and how we're being in relationship with others. So just sort of sharing, I've talked an awful lot there, but just sharing a little bit of my journey, which has brought me to where I am and and sort of a real shift in how I work with people.
Arthi Rabikrisson:Oh, I mean, Elizabeth, I was getting goosebumps as you were just giving us that high level sort of narration of all the things that were happening to you during that time. As you said, almost like this perfect storm in a teacup in a nine month period, just one after the other. But then to kind of come to this realisation that there was something more beyond that's needed from professional development. I'm just so curious about, was there something specifically that triggered this thought about, there has to be something beyond this. Is there anything more you could share around that?
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:Yeah, I think as you were talking and describing all I will talk about, you know, learning as being a core value, and I think throughout my life, when I've made dreadful decisions, when I've fallen flat on my face, when I've moved through those things that we all experience, being able to ask, What am I learning from this? And my definition, a very simple part for me is, if I've learned something, I can then do something differently. In the jargon, it's I've built my capacity, and I've built my capability to deal more constructively with similar things in the future and and I think I really was holding that, but probably wasn't fully, fully internalising it. And I always think this saying, you know, be careful what you ask for. And I was really curious about, okay, so why am I sort of not making these shifts, what's going on? And it was almost that having all of these things suddenly occur altogether, almost, was the universe going you haven't been listening. You better start now. So that's just that reflection. And I think that was the bit where I needed all of that because I wasn't listening to the the gentler, wake up, course,
Arthi Rabikrisson:Of course, look, and I mean, I must say, I can, I can totally resonate with that, because we do typically get these little signals and cues, but we're not always, I suppose, ready or in that mindset to actually completely take it on board and listen and do something about it, until, unfortunately, becomes something so much bigger that we then take that position of, okay, something's going on here, something also needs to change. And what's also coming up for me is I know so many people when we think about professional development. I mean, we know what organisations are doing in terms of talent management and a whole lot of things that help us build competencies and skills. And many people will say, but I am personally growing as well. So they see professional development and personal growth as quite synonymous. What you're articulating is that there is actually something different about them, and I want to know more about that, the key difference that you showcasing,
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:Yeah, I think that's such an interesting question, because I think I also very much come from the point, and this seems a little bit of a sidetrack, but maybe it will make sense. Okay, from where I sit, I think there's no such thing as an absolute reality. We all construct our own meaning, and partly, it's what's making sense to us, what's our own map of the world, and where are we at the moment? So with all that I offer up, you know, as we're talking today, I'm just want to be a what's the word? I want a provocateur, just to go, maybe there's a different way of looking at it. I'm not going this is the right way, or this is the wrong way, because some of your listeners may be familiar with this idea of sort of we have horizontal and vertical development and growth. And when we talk about this idea of horizontal development, it's about the knowledge and skills and building capacity and I liken that to adding more apps on your phone. When we talk about vertical development, this is the sort of personal growth that builds our capacity to, I think, react to the world in a different way. Is how we're upgrading our system. I think that's a really nice metaphor. And I'm going to this is where my academic hat comes in, because when you look at a lot of the adult development theories, they have this concept of, you know, there's a difference. We're either doing this type of personal growth and experience where we're starting to challenge the way we look at our world, how we currently make sense of things. And I love this thing. It's, you know, we're upgrading our systems. And in a way, we could look at professional and personal development in through those two lenses.
Arthi Rabikrisson:Okay.
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:However, I think your listeners are also right, because sometimes we can engage in what I might say, is more the continued professional development, which might be going on a course, doing a webinar, a workshop, listening to a podcast, reading books. If you're a coach, you might be doing off competency based development, which we would think about as adding more apps, but sometimes some of those experiences can be what we've been talking about. You know, one of these little Wake Up Calls, one of these little things that stop and ask us to question what we're doing. So sometimes some of those things that we're doing can result in personal growth. But equally, I would just like to invite us to think about when we are thinking about our personal growth is probably greater than just, you know, those opportunities for knowledge acquisition. You know it might be, I don't know about you, but sometimes I find some of my sort of best insights and ways have come just when I been walking, you know, and sometimes when I meditate, I'll sort of almost pose a question and just, you know. And these are things that I think have had that sort of greater influence. So again, I've talked a lot. Let me just pause and see where that takes your thinking,
Arthi Rabikrisson:oh no. I mean, I'm loving what you are saying. And I fully agree. It's sometimes in these, let's call it, quieter, introspective moments, and whatever shape or form that might be in terms of meditation, yoga, walking, even journaling, but sometimes these key insights, sometimes aha moments definitely just come come through. I find that too as well. And I think what's exciting from what you're saying, Elizabeth, is that as much as there is that space for those different examples that you mentioned, which I think all of us in some shape or form are doing continuously, there's an added element that's a bit deeper, that underscores even greater growth. I'm so interested to know, maybe perhaps from your research, or even just from your work, that you do some examples that can bring that to light.
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:So I think a lot of this is about enhancing the quality of our self awareness and our ability for critical thinking, I think there's an overlap. They can be slightly different. But I think thinking about what is enhancing our self awareness, part of this I think, is this willing to be open and curious. And for me, it's this ability to be curious, I think is one of the greatest gifts for helping out personal growth. Because often when we've got blind spots, we have those blind spots, because when we start to get things challenged, we move into being sort of defensive and we'll justify and I think part of the way we enhance the quality of our self awareness is allowing ourselves to be more open to different possibilities and to be curious. One of the things the even for your listeners to think about is, how do we react when we're giving feedback? Because it's not just about accepting it and going Yes, but it's about being curious and thinking about, ah, you know, what's the possibilities here? And I think this is also where the criticality part comes in. Because for me, the criticality is this ability to think about our thinking, become more aware of, perhaps the assumptions we're making, those scripts that we've carried so long in our life, and that we just have never questioned, and starting to think about those. And I think is this curiosity and this questioning that come together. So I don't know if that's answered your question. Let me pause and see where that lands and takes us.
Arthi Rabikrisson:I think it's been beautifully answered. And what is me? I mean, I love the curiosity, that exploration piece, that openness, right? It's just so inviting. It makes one think of as a child, how easy that is to be curious about everything, and over time, unfortunately, for many of us, it probably starts to close off because of different structures, different habits, different routines, different norms that we have to obey. And I guess what you're sharing, Elizabeth, is that open invitation to go back to that and to explore that. But it can be scary for people, too, to be that way, because depending on their context, they may feel it's not allowed, it's not warranted. That phrase that you use that criticality of our thinking. So thinking about our thinking, I know so many people, just even in my work, will often say, Oh, but I don't want to think about this right now. It's just too hard, and yet, having that space to do that, to consider your reactions to something that you're receiving, I think it's just, it's just a space of enlightenment. That's what's coming up for me.
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:So I think just as I listen to what you were just saying. One of the things that we ain't talking about together is what are some of the implications for this as coaches, and I think as coaches, this is about, how do we hold the space both our clients and ourselves to be vulnerable. It's how can we both sit in the not knowing? And for me, this is where being human, it's connecting with our humanity, because it's not about having a model or a framework that is going, I think, to be relevant in these moments, but it's just being able to be that's just what was sort of coming up for me in this
Arthi Rabikrisson:I'm so glad that you brought that up, because, you know, you work so intently in terms of being a mentor coach, a supervision coach as well, and you've seen how I guess us, I mean, I'll include myself there as a coach, holding that space and being vulnerable while your client is being vulnerable can be difficult sometimes, and I'd really love to get a sense of how does now this what we're talking about, this professional growth and this, this enhancement of working with expertise, play out even more in that space, in your experience.
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:So when I've been talking about this personal growth, if it's like a systems upgrade, if I go back to that metaphor, yeah, when we upgrade our phones, we get greater functionality. We're able to operate in a different way. And I think the world don't know if it's true or not. Maybe we just we know more, but it's increasingly complex. It's increasingly uncertain. I love this concept of the sort of wicked problems, and these are the issues there is no solution to. And how do we navigate all of these issues? And to be able to successfully navigate these, we need to enhance our capacity for dealing with complexity, for dealing with uncertainty. And I think so often the way we attempt to deal with this, and I think won't get sidetracked there, but we attempt doing it by sort of creating this certainty, creating, sort of like narrow, rigid views, where I always have an expression, where we tend to, sort of, I talk about being terminally right and being less open that there might be other views. There are other ways of looking at this. And I think part of this, for me, is about, how do we build our capacity for this, appreciating that what is important is that we are able to navigate different views, different opinions, that we're able to find some commonality, that we don't have to agree with each other to be able to move forward and to be accepting so that's where I'm sort of really seeing this as such an important need to be on a huge issue to help us deal with the polarisation that we're seeing in the world today as well.
Arthi Rabikrisson:You what was coming up for me as you were speaking was, I think that the how is where a lot of people get stuck. I think from the rational mind, there is this growing sense now post in this post covid world, that I need to become more resilient, I need to become more adaptive, I need to become more creative. So there's an understanding that all of these elements, curiosity as well, need to happen. But there's often a fear about practically, how am I going to do this? Doesn't mean I have to intentionally put myself into complex, difficult situations so I can figure my way out. What does it entail? And then can I actually do it? Have you sort of seen that coming through?
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:Yeah, and it's going to see me smiling, because I think, oh, it's the dilemma and, and I think I liken development to happiness. We can't do things that are going to guarantee we're going to make ourselves happy, but there are certain activities that we can engage in that will increase the likelihood of us being happy. And just as you say, I think we don't necessarily need to expose ourselves to sort of difficult situations, because they'll come up anyway. That's that's called life, and I think this is why it's really impersonal. And so I think we're fortunate in our profession, because I think when we work with sort of supervisors or mentors or coaches, or with therapists, with people that are going to help us start to challenge our thinking and invite us to see things in a different way. But I think this is something it just really emerges, and for each one of us, it's just going to happen at a different rate. And I often think it's something that it's when we look back and we start to go, do you know what? I'm dealing with this differently now my husband and I, it's both of we're both. It's our second marriage. And I think one of the reasons that our relationship is so strong is both of us have been able to learn and look back. And I hadn't consciously thought, but I thought, Oh, I'm doing this differently. So, you know, I think this is one of the challenges with this sort of growth. It's sort of, we can't actually plan it. We've got to. We often stay in coaching, don't we trust the process? Yes, and there is so much, just as we've been talking, that's been popping into my head that I think part of this is that lovely word. It's almost the the words of surrender, acceptance and trust the process and and that, I think, is why it can be really useful, whether we do this through a lens of, say, of working with another professional, or even for ourself, is that we reflect on our reflections. You know, we look we look back. And this is actually what I'm talking about. The more critical reflection we actually do sort of look back and think about, you know, perhaps, if you like journaling, you know, you look at some of the stuff you were writing a year ago, what are you noticing? What's different, what's moved, what's shifted. So we're really being able to, sort of almost, we notice it more than it's happened. And a lot of this, another idea I like is just we set an intent, and then we notice. We give ourselves permission to notice.
Arthi Rabikrisson:I like that.
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:You know, I'm aware that we've just reached a pause, just how lovely it is just to sort of sit in this space right now and see where we're going to go next.
Arthi Rabikrisson:I love that, Elizabeth, it feels like a coaching session, which is really because you you're also sparking so many beautiful thoughts in my mind as well. And I think for my listeners who are listening into this as well, I think the point is starting to get home about the fact that there is this augmentation and this richness that we all need to put a little bit of effort into bringing to the forefront right now, because, as you were saying, that ability to look in hindsight and reflect and then come back to the present and update and upgrade your system with some additional pieces, additional actions, additional intents, additional behaviours, means that we continue to learn. We continue to lean into our boundaries. We continue to push through into these growth areas. I'm assuming that these are all things that have come up in your research as well. Elizabeth, in your in your papers that you've published as well. I'm curious to know what more could be instorefrom there.
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:So just as you were thinking, I was almost coming full circle, back to, you know, enhancing our ability to work with expertise. And I think when we look at what ever sector or whatever industry we're in, the ability to work with expertise is all about how we're managing relationships. It's the relationships with others. It's the relationship with sort of organisation, and it's the relationship with ourselves. And I think being able to bring our humanity in first and then the skills and the knowledge and techniques is what enables us to have the type of connections and relationships that really not only enable us to work with expertise, but also enable those around us to enhance the quality of their work.
Arthi Rabikrisson:I love that. I love how you're putting that humanness front and centre. They take that and and continue to to enhance, to draw from, to to grow, and be very intentional about it. I think that's, that's what's landing with me in terms of this message. Elizabeth, we could keep talking for ages and ages about this. It's so such a beautiful topic, and there's so many nuances to this that we could, we could literally go down a rabbit on all these different areas. But I think as we're coming now to the end of our of our time together with this conversation, I would love if you could perhaps share maybe this, this kind of overarching, key takeaway that you'd want our listeners to leave with as we end off the podcast.
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:So again, I'm almost coming back full circle to where we were at the beginning, and we were having the little bit of the discussion about, can what we might traditionally think of as professional development, investing in knowledge acquisition also help us grow and discover. Because I think one of the things that came out of my research was just a reiteration and an invitation to think about our developmental I'm going to use the word journey. So developmental journeys as just that their journeys and on a journey, we need different things at different times. So when I'm working whether I'm working with as a coach, a mentor or supervisor, I think the starting point is always to know explore what's your purpose right now, as you're starting to think about your next steps of your journey, of this might be working with expertise, it might be looking for a different job. Might be growing your business, I don't know, but as you start to think about what's the purpose right now for your development, and then I think it's also about taking a look forward and taking a look back. What have you just been doing in the last couple of years? What's there? Because sometimes I was, you know, as part of my research, I interviewed some very experienced coaches and ones that were said to me. Well, for the last few years, I've been doing some really deep self work. So actually, this year, I'm going to go on this, this course. So I'm not necessarily saying, right, you need to go out and do something. You know, it's where are you? What are you curious about? So I think that's the first thing. And part of linking into that purpose is that question about, what's the difference I want to make right now? And so I'm probably giving a series of questions, and it comes back. So what's the difference of what, where? Where's my curiosity taking me? Yeah, yeah. What's my body telling me I need to pay attention to what does my soul need and sit with those questions? You know, some might land better than others, but I think that's the part. I think before we take the next steps on the journey, it's really thinking about actually, so where do I want to be going right now, and getting an idea of the landscape? And then I can start to answer the question about, what do I need to do?
Arthi Rabikrisson:I love that it's that, it's that inquiry in the present about the present, that reflection and inquiry into the past that's then going to inform us in terms of those next steps. I love, I love these questions. There's such, such deep questions. So I like when you say, you know some are going to land probably immediately, but others, you probably need to stew on a little bit more. So listeners, and hope you've made a note of it and begin that work that as that Elizabeth is, is sort of sharing that will take time in that journey. Elizabeth, it's been such a such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. If you would, I'd love it if you could share something so inspirational for you that just motivates you on your own journey of personal growth and professional development, something that you could share with our listeners?
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:I think, somebody who I just love reading, and it's just so profound, is Rumi, and I love his quote out beyond the ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, There is a field, and I will meet you there. And I love that quote, because I think as when I'm working with batches or clients, it's actually starting out by wanting to understand their frames of reference. How are they seeing what is right? You know, how are they seeing what is quality work, and how they work with that rather than thinking I've got the right way. So let's have that understanding. And I also think personally, in how we navigate relationships, rather than getting entrenched views of I'm right and you're wrong, which I'm sure the other person would be thinking as well. It's how can we actually step back from all of that and think about other perspectives? Because that's the field we need to be meeting in.
Arthi Rabikrisson:So so beautiful, such a rich, rich quote and thought behind it as well. Elizabeth, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today,
Dr Elizabeth Crosse:and thank you for having me. It's been an absolute joy to have the conversation with you.
Arthi Rabikrisson:Thank you, and take you bye for now. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode today. If you like what you heard, rate the episode and podcast and feel free to write a review, plus, of course, share with others too. I love talking around topics like these, so if you like my perspective or insight on the subject close to your heart or something that you grappling with, reach out to me in your comments, or send me an email via my website, or connect with me via LinkedIn, Instagram or Facebook, all my social media on the podcast information. If it's important to you, then it's important to me. So happy listening to the inspire your life podcast and catch you soon on the next episode. Bye.